Hello everybody,
I’m seeking help from both Spanish and English speakers here, and I think non-native speakers of either language will probably be able to shed just as much light on the subject as native ones.
A student of mine came across «I’d prefer it if you didn’t say anything» as a possible translation (amongst others) of «Preferiría que no dijeras nada». Of her own accord, it wouldn’t have occurred to her to use «if». I told her that there are other instances in which English prefers «if» to «that», or any other infinitive/gerund construction. For example, «Do you mind if I smoke?»
So I now have two questions to pose to you:
1: Though I think that «que» would be used more often, just how normal/strange would it seem to you to hear «si» in sentences like «¿Te importa si fumo?», «(Lo) Preferiría si no no dijeras nada». (Whilst the first one sounds just about ok to me, the second one is not what I’d expect to hear).
2: This question is my main concern, or at least, the most urgent. My student, hungry to learn, asked me what other verbs prefer «if» where Spanish prefers «que». She was hoping for a list. I’ve searched for examples and explanations, but I haven’t come to a clear conclusion.
I thought of «I’d hate it if you lost all your money», which would more likely be translated as «Odiaría que perdieras todo tu dinero» and we could say the same about «like», «love» etc.
So, can anyone help me with that list of verbs which admit «if» instead of Spanish «que» , leaving aside English alternatives such as «I’d hate you to lose all your money»?
I hope my query is understandable and I’ll be grateful for any comments.
Regards,
Inib
Muy buenas, Nibbles:
Gracias por traer esta pregunta porque esto no me lo había planteado nunca y es muy interesante. Voy a escribir en español porque sé perfectamente que tu castellano es perfecto y que no te importará que lo haga.
I’d (I would) prefer it if … (you didn’t smoke in here, etc.) es realmente una frase hecha, que en inglés va con if y en español con que. Al menos a mí me suena mal lo de Preferiría si no se lo dices.
Es decir, que parece que más que verbos va de expresiones como la anterior, como la otra que tú has mencionado (I’d hate it if …) o, por ejemplo, como I’d appreciate it if … (you didn’t smoke in here, etc.). Le agradecería que no fumara aquí. Yo emplearía que.
Vamos a verlo en sentido contrario. Me encantaría que vinieras a la boda (si vinieras a la boda, estaría encantada). I’d love it if you came to the wedding. Aquí también sería posible —corrígeme si me equivoco, por favor— la construcción con that (que): I’d love that …, pero me parece mucho menos habitual que la primera. En español no usaría si.
En resumen, parece que cualquiera de estas construcciones en inglés que incluyen ese preparatory it (preparatory object for an if clause) se traducen como que.
No tengo mucho tiempo ahora y lo he escrito bastante deprisa. Lo pensaré más detenidamente y sé que me he dejado otras cosas en el tintero, pero espero que sirva de algo y que anime a otros compañeros a comentar también.
Un saludito.
Hello nibbles:
I agree with Blasita and unless I missed something, I would like to ask you if in English you express yourself in following way, written or spoken:
I would prefer you didn’t smoke
I would prefer that you didn’t smoke
This is it for the moment. 🙂
Saludos a todos.
Thanks folks, for the participation.
Yes, Blasita, many of the examples I could think of included that preparatory it – something that my student is (thankfully) familiar with. But it’s not there in «Do you mind if I smoke?»
Chileno, thanks for the thinking-matter. I suppose I could utter those sentences you mention. I don’t know if even Americans would contemplate the subjunctive there (I would prefer you not smoke)???, but as a working-class, though reasonably well-spoken Brit, I’ve never been able to bring myself to say things like «I suggested he come on his own».
For «Sugerí que viniera solo», I could, certainly, use a past tense – «I suggested (that) he came alone» but I’ve been told time and time again that that’s wrong (in the sense of proposing and not hinting).
Cheers.
Gracias, Chileno, por venir a echarme una mano.
Nibbles, creo que la diferencia entre esas frases hechas que incluyen it y, por ejemplo, Do you mind if I … es significativa: en la primera nunca usaríamos si y en la segunda, hablo por mí y unos pocos a los que he preguntado, sí podemos usar si aunque preferimos emplear que. Otra cosa es indagar acerca de las construcciones en las que en inglés se emplea habitualmente if y, en español, se puede usar si y que y se prefiere que.
Seguimos en ello. ¡Ayuda, compañeros! 🙂
Ahí, ahí, Blasita. Veo que me estás comprendiendo.
Ya me encantaría decirle a mi alumna que se trata de «frases hechas». Ella sabe aceptar que algunas cosas son así porque sí.
El caso es que cuando yo daba mis «pasitos de bebé» con el español, creo que usaba, por inercia/por paralelismo con el inglés, en exceso el «si» donde tenía que haber usado el «que», pero ya no me acuerdo de en qué contextos.
Gracias por toda la ayuda.
Hello everyone!
Just a couple of quick comments.
First of all, I think that Blasita has hit the nail on the head with her original post and hypothesis regarding the wording/frase hecha in both Spanish and English.
As a native American English speaker, I can not imagine myself (or any other American) ever saying something like:
«I (would) prefer you not smoke»
… even in the most formal situation nowadays. This sound extremely stilted to my ear.
As far as one of the other sentences mentioned, the most common way of saying this in modern (and not grammatically correct) American English is:
«I suggest he comes on his own.» (present) [Here I believe the correct version (using the subjunctive) is: I suggest he come on his own.]
My head is about to explode…
Thanks, Gerardo. It’s a relief to know that we’re not all perfect all the time!
Just one last question (which is slightly off topic, but as there are no nasty moderators here, here goes…): What tense would you comfortably use in colloquial conversation after «I suggested that…»?
I see it as Gerardo does:
I suggest he come on his own
I suggested he came on his own
I would prefer you didn’t smoke and somehow in mind I think of I would prefer you to not smoke…
Would the latter be OK?
Hey nibbles!
Regarding:
«I suggested that he came on his own»
I must admit this sounds horrible to my ear and is getting worse and worse the more I say it. The trouble is, on the other hand, once you start to look for a pattern and analyze the general concept here, it starts to look and sound right. In the end, I simply can not find a verb form other than «come» that sounds good here. Correct or not, the only way I can see myself expressing this sentence is:
I suggested that he come on his own/alone. (Sorry, I just realized I changed the wording of your original sentence.)
I looked the grammar point up on Google and apparently after either a present tense or past tense intro verb (suggest/suggested) the only form is a present (that is, «come»). This is news to me.
The problem is, as you well know, we (practically) never use the subjunctive and almost always re-word sentences of this type. If I were to utter something like this in casual conversation I think I would say something like:
I suggested that he should come alone.
This is, in part, what makes the use of the Spanish subjunctive so difficult for me and for many other native English speakers. The Spanish has a logic and a formula/pattern which makes sense (once you «get it»). It’s getting to that point that is so hard. And there is nothing to compare it to in English to help you along the way.
Well, I hope this answers your question. I’m not sure it really does but I just got on a roll here and had to keep writing what was in my head.
Chileno:
Here is my take on your last sentence.
I would prefer you didn’t smoke. This sounds like the formal, correct way to say it. I don’t think many native American English speakers would say it this way. I suspect you would usually hear something like: I would prefer it if you wouldn’t smoke. (That’s how I would say it in normal/casual conversation anyway.)
I would prefer you not to smoke. This to me is wrong. It sounds like a translation of the Spanish.
Hi everyone,
It’s all very interesting stuff!
Just want to share some thoughts with you and I’d love to hear what you think about them. I’ve come up with a couple of examples.
I doubt if anyone will be interested in the speech. I doubt if I can go. Dudo que alguien pueda estar interesado en el discurso. Dudo que pueda ir.
Every time you need a subjunctive in sentences like this one, you’ll use que. You could also say e.g. Dudo si va a poder ir, but I’d usually use que in here.
They don’t care if/(whether) you win or lose. No les importa que pierdas o ganes. No les importa si ganas o pierdes. Same as above: que + subjunctive and si + indicative. This si sentence sounds just fine to me but I suppose if you’re trying to translate literally the first one with que, you can try to use that.
Have a lovely day.